1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:06,600 Do we talk too little about mental illness, or are we, on the contrary, obsessed with it? 2 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,960 Narcissists, trauma, psychopaths and energy thieves: 3 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,120 The language of psychology has caught on in everyday life. 4 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:33,200 But it helps us feel better, and do we get a better society? 5 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:38,600 Sports profile Ludmila Engquist and self-help guru Gabor Maté is here. 6 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:42,840 But first: Welcome here, artist Pernilla Wahlgren– 7 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:49,080 -literature scholar Ebba Witt-Brattström, leadership coach Elaine Eksvärd– 8 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:54,520 –professor of psychiatry Christian Rück and comedian Nisse Hallberg. 9 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:01,520 I know several here around the table have been in therapy quite a bit. 10 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:07,760 Then I'll be curious about what you've tried. - Ebba, what have you tried? 11 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,480 Yes, it started in the 70s. 12 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:19,120 Then I tried something called primal therapy, primal scream therapy. 13 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:25,280 - It feels very 70s. - Yes, it is very basic. 14 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,880 You have to go back to her delivery. 15 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:33,440 We all carry... Janov, I think his name was. 16 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:38,000 We all carry a trauma from our birth. 17 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:42,240 Our own birth? Not one the woman has been through? 18 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:49,440 You wait, it's crowded and you are going through this narrow gate. 19 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:55,360 You live with this enormous trauma, and then you're going back to it. 20 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:00,240 Then you'll scream your way out, and then you have taken control of it. 21 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,000 Well, that's bullshit. 22 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:12,760 - I almost got you. You believed me. –I just: "Oh, my God." Great. 23 00:02:12,920 --> 00:02:17,360 -What have you been through? -What have I been through? 24 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:21,200 CBT, family constellation therapy, family therapy. 25 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:27,040 Some little chubby aunt who burned incense and smoked a lot. 26 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:31,360 It was in her apartment. I don't know what it was called, but expensive! 27 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,400 Not certified, but expensive? 28 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:39,800 She had a poster of an elephant with her four proboscis. It was her diploma. 29 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:45,640 Her name was Shaktera Umpara or something. Didn't work. I am saved in CBT. 30 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,800 It worked best? Because you've had a little to contend with. 31 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:56,160 - Really, but it went well. - You give the thumbs up to therapy. 32 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:03,520 But, Elaine... You advocate therapy, both for yourself and for everyone. 33 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:07,640 Which one is your most interesting experience? 34 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:13,280 Without therapy, you can become quite disgusting. I know when I didn't. 35 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:19,280 I have been in group therapy for trauma treatment for seven years. 36 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:24,920 With other trauma victims. It was a bit annoying, but incredibly rewarding. 37 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:31,880 Since then, I have attended CBT for panic disorder. Brilliant, it's life changing. 38 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:37,240 -How was your behavior, then? -When I didn't go to therapy? 39 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:44,120 I was quite angry. I came out with a book about my trauma in 2016. 40 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,400 I wasn't quite done with mine trauma, so I was quite angry. 41 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:55,240 Had a proper sacrificial jacket. Everyone was for or against me. 42 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:59,520 - Then I would have needed more therapy. -You were at war with the world. 43 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:01,800 And felt sorry for myself. 44 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,320 Pernilla, if Wahlgren's world is to be believed– 45 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:11,080 – which airs on Kanal 5 and follows you and your family… 46 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:16,680 - You are a little skeptical about therapy. - Yes, I am. 47 00:04:16,840 --> 00:04:21,320 -Have you had it so easy in life? - No, not really. 48 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,680 I've been pissed and went to therapy. 49 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:32,120 I have been to various therapists and never got anything out of it. 50 00:04:32,280 --> 00:04:36,280 What has helped me in life are my friends. 51 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:42,160 Friends I can talk to, knead. Wise friends who offer advice. 52 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,360 "Think so, think so." And who knows me inside and out. 53 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,320 - But have you tried therapy? -Yes. 54 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:54,640 It felt like: "Now I'm going to sit here... 'Tell me, why are you here?'" 55 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:59,600 I would tell you about my life, and she sat and typed: 56 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,360 “God, what yummy details I'll hear now." 57 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:08,880 No, I never felt... She sat and listened: "Well, is that so? Mm." 58 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:14,120 "No, now the time is up." And I hadn't gotten anything out. 59 00:05:14,280 --> 00:05:22,040 "Send an invoice." But you have it easy to open up to a stranger? 60 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:27,040 Or you come in and is "Pernilla Wahlgren"? 61 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:33,720 I find it very easy to open up. "I'm here for this and that." 62 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:39,120 But these keys you have to get I haven't been given anything to work with. 63 00:05:39,280 --> 00:05:45,400 I haven't found any door. So unfortunately it hasn't helped me. 64 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,120 Then it has helped with my friends. 65 00:05:48,280 --> 00:05:53,760 My friends are great therapists with which you can also drink alcohol. 66 00:05:53,920 --> 00:06:00,400 -Does your family want you to go to therapy? - My daughter wanted it. 67 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:06,160 "I HAVE been to therapy," I say. - "You have so much inside you, mother." 68 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:11,600 I don't think I have it, so... My husband wants to go to couples therapy. 69 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:16,240 I can... I can drive...drive myself to it. 70 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:21,360 -You can do it to be nice, right? - Yes, I can bet on that. 71 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:26,840 It can be good when there are two of you. But when you are alone, then... 72 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:31,600 I'm good at kneading with my friends. I feel sorry for them. 73 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:36,080 What is your husband Christian complaining about? 74 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:41,280 We are so different. He thinks I... 75 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:47,280 That we need to meet, because we are so different. That we should understand each other. 76 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:52,720 But is he more emotional than you, or vice versa? 77 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:55,920 Yes, he is much more sensitive. So... 78 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:01,360 Well, much more sensitive as a person. Takes more. 79 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:05,080 I'm more like this: "But, please, what's the problem?" 80 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:10,760 I'm a bit easy-going, and then is it difficult for someone who is sensitive– 81 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:16,520 -to live with such a person. Then couples therapy is probably great. 82 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:21,400 Take him once, and he will say: "That's not needed." 83 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:27,360 It's terribly boring. You get homework, and it's so... 84 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:32,160 -Not in couples therapy, right? - Well, my God, I've had homework! 85 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,560 - I have been in family therapy... - Go to my old one. 86 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,400 -Once! -Then he doesn't want to go back. 87 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:45,160 Christian, Can you go to therapy too much? 88 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:47,880 Yes, so... 89 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:54,320 If that doesn't help one, so maybe it could be too much. 90 00:07:54,480 --> 00:08:01,440 I am interested in about society may become too "gene-therapeuticed". 91 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:06,840 If common problems suddenly become healthcare-like problems– 92 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:11,720 – for which you have to go to therapy. It's a dangerous shift. 93 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:18,840 When you are told that all children should go to therapy. It is a bit... 94 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,240 What are you thinking? about what Pernilla tells here? 95 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,120 Dude... I've been in couples therapy. 96 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:31,360 There was a divorce after two sessions, so… 97 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,880 - Get ready for it! -Yes! 98 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:38,960 I'm afraid of that, that man starts arguing about what you bring up. 99 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:44,360 Isn't it a little dangerous to say that you are easy-going and he is sensitive? 100 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,600 If you turn it around, he might say that you are insensitive and he is deep. 101 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:54,280 He could say that. Not insensitive, but I'm not that… 102 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:59,280 I don't eat much, and he... So, little words... 103 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:04,520 I can say, “But, are you sick in your head, right?" Without meaning to. 104 00:09:04,680 --> 00:09:07,960 - He gets really sad. - There I am with you. 105 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,440 You can never tell what you mean, but he can tell you how it lands. 106 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:16,200 Exactly, so now I don't say that anymore. 107 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:22,160 Your husband is a great storyteller their feelings. Feelings have become… 108 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:27,680 Women in heterosexual relationships almost have a patent on emotions. 109 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:32,760 It is very difficult for men to tell about feelings, because then they are "offended". 110 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,000 If they don't, they are macho men. 111 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,760 They come out of the testosterone cave, as your husband seems to have done… 112 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,080 -Too often it is... - But Pernilla is still there. 113 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,840 We usually say I'm the tomboy in the relationship. He is more feminine. 114 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:54,480 For those who don't talk about feelings it will be old man's sigh. "What's wrong?" 115 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:58,480 -Are you an old man sucker, Santa? - This is complex. 116 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:04,760 It's better that you play it all out the time. My girl poops all the time. 117 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,200 I have full control on how she feels in the head. 118 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:13,560 And then you try to do it, and you shouldn't do that... 119 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:20,200 Then you become a whiny, offended man, so I choose to stack instead. 120 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:24,080 -And finally it explodes. - There will be a fight, you give back... 121 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,960 Of course you should do it, but god what an old man sigh. 122 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:34,000 Many who start therapy continue for several years, with many different therapists. 123 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,720 Here are some signs of that it is time to change. 124 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,280 Signs that it's time to change therapist: 125 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:46,680 When the therapist brings out the card terminal at the beginning of the session. 126 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:51,960 When the therapist repeats “Can you tell me more about what you felt then?"– 127 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:57,400 -after you for the third time have told you what you felt then. 128 00:10:57,560 --> 00:11:01,400 When the yucca palm in the room withers during the call. 129 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:06,280 When the therapist suggests that not everything depends on your mother. 130 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:11,880 When you accidentally catch sight of the therapist's notes. 131 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:20,120 When the therapist points out that the paper the handkerchiefs should last the whole day. 132 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:24,840 When the therapist has given up hope, or outright jumped. 133 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,920 I don't know... Santa, do you recognize yourself? 134 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,240 I have a therapist that crossed the line a lot. 135 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:42,280 She came with her husband to my standup and sat at the front. 136 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:47,920 The next therapy session she began with: "You want to know what I thought?" 137 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:53,440 Then she took ten minutes and gave a review about my standup. The... 138 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:58,160 - Then it's time to change therapists. - Yes, then it was time. 139 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,880 Otherwise I don't recognize myself a lot. 140 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:07,880 Is therapy the same as to take care of yourself? - Elaine? 141 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:13,640 It is taking responsibility for oneself, to take care of oneself and others. 142 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:20,440 So you don't become passive aggressive or thinking, "You should understand!" 143 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:25,600 One must ask: "What is this really about?" 144 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:29,040 - You take care of yourself. -What are you thinking? 145 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:36,240 Therapy can be treatment for panic disorder or some other problem. 146 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,960 Sometimes we talk about therapy as something for everything. 147 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:47,680 When we talk about therapy as general self improvement, wellness product... 148 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:52,040 That's when it can, but doesn't have to, derail. 149 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:56,280 I really agree with that. Wellness product... 150 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:02,840 Nothing is as scary as therapy. You become completely alone with yourself. 151 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,200 If I understand you correctly... 152 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:12,120 Going to therapy as something preventive, like working out, shouldn't you? 153 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,120 No, it's rather... 154 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:20,720 It's like going to the dentist all over again you get a toothache. It is not more difficult. 155 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:25,840 Although you can go for an annual check-up. "You have an incipient hole." 156 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,200 Okay... 157 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:35,200 That's how I think about couple therapy, that it can be good to prevent problems. 158 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:39,240 Not to grab it when the crap has hit the fan. 159 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:44,600 Should you go to couples therapy even when everything works fine? 160 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:49,240 - You should do that. – All life? 161 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,840 At regular intervals. Say once every six months. 162 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:59,080 I am thinking that your husband and your daughter says you should go… 163 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:03,480 -Are you also going to start now? - No, but as people have told me: 164 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,960 “Maybe you shouldn't be here. You're ruining the mood." 165 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,080 -What do they base it on? - He doesn't say that I should go. 166 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,640 He says WE should go, to understand each other. 167 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,760 Then it goes up and down. Right now we understand each other very well. 168 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:25,680 The question becomes... It's good to go to therapy, but does everyone have to? 169 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,520 - That is the question. -And what is the answer? 170 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,400 Insulin is good for diabetes, but should everyone take insulin? 171 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,600 It's up to each, right? There is no compulsion. 172 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,720 You are not bad if you don't go to therapy. 173 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:46,160 But it feels... - You knew about it that you are disgusting if you don't... 174 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:52,280 Not so categorically, but we have one whole generation that will need therapy. 175 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,280 We parents have given them screens– 176 00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:00,640 - and they haven't gotten to experience us present, as our parents were. 177 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:04,880 I think it will be more normalized with therapy. 178 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:13,280 Do you think that therapy can also be about optimizing... 179 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,760 To somehow become your best self? 180 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,960 We are humans with faults and flaws– 181 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:25,240 -so try to be perfect or not having negative feelings– 182 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,400 – it is to set up a trap for himself. 183 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,760 It is better to accept yourself as you are. 184 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,760 Problems can be tackled to be the best you can be. 185 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:41,800 But being stuck in diets and self-improvement projects… 186 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,200 It doesn't end well. 187 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:50,640 Elaine what are you doing besides going to therapy– 188 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,760 - to become a better version of yourself? 189 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,360 I became the super therapy person here… 190 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,160 - Sorry, it was your role. - I notice it. 191 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:07,960 I often think when we talk to each other that there will be reports: 192 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,200 "How's the situation?" You don't tell how you really feel. 193 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,800 Men would need space to talk for real. 194 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:19,120 Do you talk feelings, you and your friends? 195 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:24,480 -Yes... - That was a no, huh? It sounded... 196 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:31,240 No, I think women have an image of that men don't talk feelings, which is wrong. 197 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,240 -Or? - No, it's the right one, I think. 198 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:39,400 -Is it right? Is it just me? -Women want an answer. 199 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,200 When men ask each other "How are you?", so the answer is: "Good." 200 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:50,200 It can mean “I won a million yesterday" or "I'll be dead in a week". 201 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:54,680 And that's okay. You don't want to know so much all the time. 202 00:16:54,840 --> 00:17:00,680 - After all, Nisse is a man who talks about feelings. - That's me. God, yes. 203 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:05,520 Then you can't say that men not talk feelings? We do it! 204 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:12,040 The difference, if a man like me has friends who act as therapists– 205 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:18,320 – is that we are not just yes-sayers. "You're right, tell him!" 206 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:23,760 We say, “I think you're harsh when you think so." We discuss. 207 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:29,800 But are they men or women Who needs therapy the most? 208 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,120 Uh... Yeah, you... 209 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,720 I think a lot of men, especially in my generation– 210 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:44,880 -would feel better to get help and support in talk therapy. 211 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:51,040 Then I think maybe CBT may work for younger men– 212 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:56,960 - which is still a bit more open and have lived in a different culture. 213 00:17:57,120 --> 00:18:03,440 Describe the difference in the process between CBT and talk therapy. 214 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,800 I have attended a CBT therapy. It wasn't good. 215 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:13,960 I would do things to next time, and it went wrong. 216 00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:20,400 But you recommend it to young men? You hate young men. 217 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,320 No, now... No, Fredrik, now you're... 218 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:27,720 - No, I LOVE young men. -So...? 219 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,600 Everything is going wrong now! 220 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:37,440 I mean that I have given birth to four sons! Sorry. 221 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:44,920 Now if men have to walk so much in therapy, isn't it strange that… 222 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:50,640 Women talk more about their feelings, we think, and go to therapy more– 223 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,600 -but still feel worse than men. 224 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:59,920 It is because they meet men who have no control over their feelings. 225 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:06,000 It will be like... You will be the relationship expert in the relationship. 226 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:13,080 I'm curious about what you're thinking what this says about society. 227 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:18,440 Take your perspective, as a linguist and literature scholar... 228 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:24,840 This has affected our language and the way we talk about each other– 229 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,200 – with words we haven't used before. 230 00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:33,960 I am very critical that we talking about people like narcissists. 231 00:19:34,120 --> 00:19:40,680 That's because we have presidents, both in the West and in the East, which is. 232 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:48,200 But then you read: "Don't ask these questions to a narcissist." 233 00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:54,280 It's wrong. Those are the questions you should ask Limit the number of yes-sayers. 234 00:19:54,440 --> 00:20:00,760 Because then the narcissist has no chance to spread out. 235 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:05,160 It is very typical for Stockholm right now, or Sweden– 236 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,640 -that everyone's ex is a narcissist. 237 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,240 - It is teeming with narcissists. - It is completely watered down. 238 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:19,560 And that means: "I am whole innocent. It was the narcissist." 239 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:25,400 Isn't it just that people use those words... They are completely watered down. 240 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,840 Is that so, Elaine, that the words are completely watered down? 241 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,600 Yes, it is. But I want to go further. 242 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:39,240 A forensic psychiatric examination should be done investigation on every single power holder. 243 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:44,760 It should be mandatory with therapy to lead a country. 244 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,440 -Forensic psychiatry? - Yes, you have to check the diagnoses. 245 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,120 Two weeks locked up in Huddinge is adequate. 246 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,480 Isn't that a little self-absorbed– 247 00:20:55,640 --> 00:21:01,800 - to start only from oneself and their own needs? 248 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,960 Is going to therapy self-absorbed? 249 00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:10,760 Just keep it to yourself. It will be a bit like crossfit. 250 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:14,920 People who do crossfit nagging about it. 251 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,640 Go to your therapy, but you don't have to shove it down everyone's throats. 252 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:25,040 It's hard, because Bianca said something to me when we talked. 253 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,520 “You should go to therapy for Christian's sake." 254 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:33,520 But if I'm going to go to therapy myself should I do it for my sake. 255 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:38,760 It must still be well thought out, right? Or? 256 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:42,720 I do couples therapy for our sake. 257 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:47,400 But if I'm going to go to my own therapy to change– 258 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,640 -or become someone that he fits in with... No. 259 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:56,320 It doesn't have to be the intention. I teased old people. 260 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:03,520 A friend said, “But what's the chicken and the egg? Aren't you whining?" 261 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:08,320 I treat my husband like one caretaker who should understand thoughts. 262 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,600 Then it is good to go to therapy for his sake. 263 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:19,600 We will talk more about trauma, which is a big theme in therapy. 264 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:24,680 What is a trauma? and how does it affect our psyche? 265 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:30,880 The Canadian doctor Gabor Maté is a star in the self-help sky– 266 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:35,440 —and has yielded millions of followers a new view of trauma. 267 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,320 You are with us now, Dr. Gabor Maté. Welcome. 268 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,000 Thanks. 269 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,440 Is your large number of followers– 270 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:53,920 -on Youtube and other social media a sign of the times? 271 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:58,840 Yes. I've been writing about this for 27-28 years. 272 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:04,960 But suddenly I became a big star when the world took notice of me. 273 00:23:05,120 --> 00:23:12,120 It's not because of me, but because of others realizes the value of healing from trauma. 274 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,360 When you talk about trauma, what do you mean then? 275 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:22,520 The word "trauma" comes from the Greek and means "wound". 276 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:29,960 Trauma is thus an injury. That is not what afflicts a– 277 00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:36,200 – without what happens inside one as a result of what you suffered. 278 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:41,760 A blow to the head is not a trauma, without a traumatic event. 279 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,080 The trauma consists of the concussion. 280 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:50,360 The trauma is a wound, either physically or mentally. 281 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:56,920 And also psychological wounds manifested physically in the body. 282 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:01,080 The trauma is unhealed wounds, and many wear them. 283 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,200 In everyday speech we describe trauma– 284 00:24:05,360 --> 00:24:12,080 – such as war, accidents, abuse or something else very… 285 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,200 No, no. 286 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,720 This is how we describe it– 287 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,640 -but all the pain and all the stress is not traumatic. 288 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:29,920 Two people can experience the same thing, as a great loss– 289 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:35,240 -where one is traumatized but not the other. It depends. 290 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,560 What could it be? 291 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:44,920 You mean that the trauma is a reaction on a traumatic event. 292 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,000 What factors determine our experience– 293 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:53,240 –how we react and how traumatized do we become? 294 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,440 There are many factors, but two usually come into play. 295 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:03,160 One is how sensitive you are. The second concerns the social environment. 296 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:09,320 The most traumatic for a child is to be alone with one's feelings. 297 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:16,800 If a child experiences pain, however can tell about it and get confirmation– 298 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:22,560 – the child is not traumatized, as you become when you are alone. 299 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:29,040 So thus sensitivity and whether we are alone or supported. 300 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,000 If I understand you correctly– 301 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:37,360 - so you think that anyone can fall victim to a trauma. 302 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,440 I wouldn't use the word "victim". 303 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:46,240 It implies that one is helpless and exposed to someone else. 304 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:53,160 It may apply in some cases, such as when children are abused. 305 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,640 They are victims, but do not have to remain so. 306 00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,880 I have some guests here in the studio– 307 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:06,800 -and one of them is psychiatry professor Christian Rück. 308 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,920 What is your comment to what Gabor says? 309 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:20,840 My objection, to which we shall return to, is that trauma is sometimes used– 310 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:29,320 – as a general explanation to any kind of symptom or problem. 311 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:34,960 Then it can also become problematic. 312 00:26:35,120 --> 00:26:37,840 Do you agree with that, Gabor? 313 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:45,600 That the word can sometimes be used incorrectly to explain everything? 314 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,320 Yes and no. Sometimes someone can say: 315 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:52,960 “I arranged a picnic with a lot of food." 316 00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:56,480 "But then it rained, and I was traumatized." 317 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:02,360 No, you were just disappointed and sad, not traumatized. 318 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:07,880 That's the one. But as a doctor I can also say– 319 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:13,040 - that regardless of whether you study autoimmune diseases, cancer– 320 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:20,720 – depression, anxiety, bulimia or any other ailment– 321 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:28,480 -there is often a trauma behind it, which the healthcare system does not want to acknowledge. 322 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:34,400 Not psychiatry, the schools or the lawyers either. 323 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,960 You often talk about children– 324 00:27:38,120 --> 00:27:44,920 -who are abandoned by their parents early on. 325 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,000 Or like here in Scandinavia– 326 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,760 - when the children are left at preschool. 327 00:27:53,920 --> 00:28:02,680 For millions of years, or in the case of man for up to 200,000 years– 328 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:07,640 – have we lived in large family groups or tribes– 329 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:16,280 -in larger social groups where the children is with adults all the time. 330 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:24,200 It is new that children are separated from their parents and not meet them all day. 331 00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:32,120 It would go well if the preschool staff was trained in emotional support. 332 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:39,160 Children don't just need to be taken care of physically, without getting emotionally attached. 333 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,400 Without the connection, the children suffer. 334 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:50,440 Many suffer from anxiety and bullying or become addicted to the internet. 335 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:56,520 They bond with each other and loses connection with the adults. 336 00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:02,880 It is possible to send the children to preschool– 337 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:10,600 – if they receive emotional support there. But often they only receive physical care. 338 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:16,320 -Dr Gabor Maté, thank you for joining us. - Thank you. 339 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:26,240 This is largely about trauma. 340 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:32,280 In our reality, it is a big concept. 341 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:37,320 There is a lot called trauma, and so does Gabor. 342 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,920 Do you think it is unproblematic? 343 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:45,960 Now it becomes difficult with the word trauma, but traumatic events– 344 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:52,960 – has been to Auschwitz, rape... Clear horrible events. 345 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:59,360 Since 1980, it has been called PTSD which you can suffer from afterwards. 346 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:05,840 Then they started using it that concept much further– 347 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:10,520 – for both small things and other types of events– 348 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:17,520 –like “my mom didn't see mine authentic me when I was a child". 349 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:23,360 It is a great expansion of what are we talking about– 350 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,880 -where almost everything can be explained by this– 351 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,720 – and almost any problem can be considered to have it. 352 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,920 -Is he right? - I am not a psychologist. 353 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:38,440 But I'm curious, because you talk about war– 354 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,600 - and then someone who has not been seen by their parents. 355 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,920 You can be at war and have parents who love you. 356 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:52,240 Isn't it terrible not to be seen? Surely there will be a war inside? 357 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:59,840 There are still events which are generally much more dangerous. 358 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,920 Being subjected to death threats– 359 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:08,480 – or serious abuse against one's integrity. 360 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:14,160 - It's still... -Should one really compare suffering? 361 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,040 I was exposed to trauma as a child– 362 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,560 -and some friends say that they cannot be compared to me. 363 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:27,840 But I can see how bad they are. I don't wear a bigger sacrificial cardigan. 364 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,240 Yes, but if we don't compare suffering at all– 365 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,680 –can all suffering be explained in the same way. 366 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:42,040 It depends on how bad you are, right? Or how we react? 367 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:46,800 If we say that when I ride a bike to Filmhuset for the recording– 368 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:53,600 -I get attacked by a gang that snaps off all my fingers. 369 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,720 Most people would see that as a severe traumatic event– 370 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,640 – with a high risk of terrible psychiatric consequences for me. 371 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:08,080 But if I had slipped outside here perhaps many had thought– 372 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:13,240 - that it doesn't automatically give me catastrophic psychological consequences. 373 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:18,080 The comparison is lame. You will come rather home to their parents– 374 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:22,760 -and they snap off the human contact– 375 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,080 -against being raped or beaten sometime. 376 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,880 There are two terrible events. Why can't one be called trauma? 377 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:37,360 -According to Gabor Maté, it could be. - Yes, you can call it anything. 378 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:42,160 I haven't decided yet about the language in Sweden. 379 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:47,560 But you do, I was about to say… What do you think when you hear this? 380 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:54,480 It will be this leveling, so i agree here. It's different. 381 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:59,240 I understand that you, Elaine, thinking it's the experience. 382 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:04,240 It's true. If you experience that you are traumatized– 383 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,360 – is it very important to you. 384 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:14,320 But you were on to that we project the blame onto others. 385 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,160 There is such a tendency. The "mommy can't see me" thing. 386 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,200 "Mum shaming" is a national sport after all– 387 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:28,360 – and everything can be placed in what mother did not do. 388 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:34,440 Is it really good to dig into everything and turn over every stone? 389 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:39,480 If you had done that, is there then something within you– 390 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:45,400 – which had arrived and made you more optimal? 391 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:50,000 I have really turned on every rock in my life. 392 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:55,840 - Is there nothing hiding there? - I have not swept it under the rug. 393 00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:01,840 But today I feel so good, So why should I go to therapy? 394 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:07,000 - Just because it's something you have to. - You don't get away. 395 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:16,440 I got a little caught up in the parable with the bike and the fingers. 396 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:22,040 It was such an incredible picture. It was just so fucking gross. 397 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,600 –Castration complex? - There are so many difficult words too. 398 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:35,360 I have been very hypochondriacal. That's why I've been in a lot of therapy. 399 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:41,400 First it was physical. After HIV and mad cow disease it was psychological. 400 00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:48,640 I was afraid of going crazy and to think I was my sister. 401 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,360 - Wow! – Very interesting! 402 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,240 Then I dug into where it came from. 403 00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:01,320 When I was five years old was a guy who gave me candy: 404 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,240 “That's a death pill. You have 15 minutes left to live." 405 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:07,760 There came my first panic attack. 406 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:15,000 It can be good to turn over stones and get an explanation for the reaction. 407 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:21,400 Can't it be - this about turning on rocks – part of one's identity? 408 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:28,040 You find a trauma that has marked you and build an entire identity from it? 409 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,480 In this type of program– 410 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:36,400 – is of course a certain currency to have something to tell about oneself– 411 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:42,320 – which makes one seem authentic and not as a boring person. 412 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:48,080 Social media does that quite a lot: creates a false closeness. 413 00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:53,880 And an expansive culture of trauma can become part of it. 414 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:58,400 “This is my social currency – other people see me more." 415 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:06,160 - You can see it in regular TV programmes. - An authenticity, that you are "for real". 416 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:12,640 What does that say about our society, Ebba? That we talk this way? 417 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,200 In my time there were neurotics and then there were hysterics. 418 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:23,240 Being neurotic was better than that be hysterical. It was that simple! 419 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:28,720 And really awkward is to become folded. To end up in a compartment, that is. 420 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,680 - Yes! - I thought we became a bit youthful. 421 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,920 You don't want to be fucked! 422 00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,920 Here comes Jockiboi and his mother was stupid. 423 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:49,920 And here it comes. It is a huge... We are so complex. 424 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:54,520 We are so much more. I don't think so you should say that someone IS a narcissist. 425 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,040 One can have narcissistic traits. 426 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:01,600 Some mean that happiness is found outside oneself. 427 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:06,840 You find happiness when you find meaning in something other than digging into himself. 428 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,840 - I agree. There are both. -What do you think? 429 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,800 Will I get a result then? 430 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,320 I would try to avoid happiness as a target. 431 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:24,120 I think you should be satisfied if you are not unhappy. 432 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,120 Setting a Perfect Goal– 433 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:34,200 - that we can live a life that is optimal... No, I'm against happiness. 434 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,520 Good luck... Okay. - 1-10, where are you on the happiness scale? 435 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,520 Oh. I would say… It sounds terrible, but 10. 436 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:44,680 I am very happy. 437 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,040 I live a happy life. 438 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:53,680 We don't have it like that in Norway just this week, but… 439 00:37:55,240 --> 00:38:03,120 We have asked Norstat to ask a thousand Swedes, a statistically representative sample– 440 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,640 - if they have been in therapy. Check here. 441 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,960 Hardly one in three Swedes have been in talk therapy. 442 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:16,160 In which party do you think it is most common to go to talk therapy? 443 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,920 The People's Party. They need it. 444 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:24,680 That's not what I asked. In which party is it most common? 445 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,600 – The Center Party? - No, the sosses, I think. 446 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,440 Very clear. Look at this. 447 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,200 The left-wing parties are raising the bar. 448 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:40,040 That's twice as many as in the other major parties. 449 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,040 Does talk therapy work? See here. 450 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:48,040 You have different opinions depending on it if you yourself have gone to therapy. 451 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:54,600 Yes, say eight out of ten who have tried it. No, say half who haven't tried it. 452 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,960 Haven't you gone? cannot be expressed. 453 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,080 We gave them the chance anyway. 454 00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:03,680 But okay. Quite honestly: 455 00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:10,240 Have you ever thought that mental illness also used as an excuse? 456 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:11,880 Look here. 457 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,720 Over 60 percent suspect it. Is it unfair? 458 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,560 - I use it as an excuse sometimes. -You have ADHD? 459 00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:23,360 Yes. I zoom out easily. 460 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,880 I really have to concentrate when you talk about deep, serious things. 461 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:32,120 -Did it happen when Gabor Maté...? -You're back at school? 462 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:34,560 Yes, absolutely. 463 00:39:34,720 --> 00:39:37,920 Joby feelings are a part of life. 464 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:42,240 But how hard is life for the Swedes? Look here. 465 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:47,120 We asked which of the following feelings one has felt the past year. 466 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:52,400 66 percent have felt sad, 31 percent depressed– 467 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:59,080 -46 percent have felt anxiety and 16 percent have experienced panic attacks. 468 00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:02,680 I react on 16 percent panic attacks. 469 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,640 That's probably a tenth of them who have had panic attacks. 470 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:10,000 -There are so many who... "Panic attack!" - Do you overinterpret? 471 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:15,640 Have you had a real panic attack, then you are in with an EKG. 472 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:20,280 It is overused, so that I get pissed off. 473 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:25,880 Only if you are a little stressed... Then I'm like: "Grab your collar!" 474 00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:32,280 Although you can have panic disorder without have to go in. You hyperventilate... 475 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,760 Have you had it? How then? 476 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:40,360 Cousin I got it sometimes, on several occasions. 477 00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,320 - You hyperventilate and... – Like stage fright? 478 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:48,800 No, I was pissed. I had them all those diagnoses. Or the feelings. 479 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:55,120 Then I didn't feel well. So I'm happy that I sit here and say "10". 480 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,400 Actually. 481 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:04,840 Finally, we asked which famous Swede they would rather have had as a conversation therapist. 482 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:10,240 What do you think people will answer? If you can choose. 483 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,400 -Mark Levengood. -Edward Blom. 484 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,200 Shall we look at the answer? Check here. 485 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,200 Leif G. W. Person. 486 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,520 Mark is in. But that's just men. What does it say? 487 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,320 Who the hell wants to go to Micke Persbrandt? 488 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:33,560 But between Persson and Persbrandt – who is it that is squeezed in there? 489 00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:36,880 - Yes, Pernilla Wahlgren! -Huh? 490 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:41,480 - Am I included? - Yes, you are included! You are tiny. 491 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,400 So if you feel bad, come to me later. 492 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,520 It can be short conversations, so you can focus. 493 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,000 Good conversational therapist... 494 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:56,720 In Tornedalen, people are far apart and even longer between the psychologists. 495 00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:01,560 But the country trader takes his time for a little talk therapy in the winter darkness. 496 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,680 We are located in Kitkiöjärvi. 497 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,560 Three miles from the Finnish border. 498 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:21,240 You get happy when you meet people. 499 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,160 They talk about the days and how you feel. 500 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,360 -How many oranges does Krister want? -Have a rye cake. 501 00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,680 Should the cold smoked be sliced ​​or in pieces? 502 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:37,280 It's Friday. Later today shall we drive goods to the exchanges. 503 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:41,520 We're taking the store with us and drive away with goods. 504 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,520 It's -34 degrees outside. 505 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:51,920 For customers, this means more than a regular food delivery. 506 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:58,360 Sometimes they have been alone for a week. Especially now that it's really cold. 507 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,400 You are like a psychologist. 508 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:07,320 If they have lost a relative, you get take time to sit down and talk. 509 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,320 Is it genealogy? 510 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,880 Everyone is related to each other. 511 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:17,720 It's the highlight of the week. They say: "Finally Friday again!" 512 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,880 Where the hell have you been all night? 513 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,000 We make coffee now that it's so cold. 514 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:28,280 - I have nothing else to do. - You bake and clean. 515 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,000 - Didn't Sandra have sweets for you? - I forgot. 516 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:36,880 Sugar, otherwise it tastes nothing. 517 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:41,360 They have company for a while and feel seen. 518 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,160 -Kiito's troop. - Thank you yourselves. 519 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:56,600 We will continue in the program. Elaine will also further. - Thank you, Elaine Eksvärd! 520 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:05,600 Our next guest was a loved one athletics star with Olympic and World Cup gold– 521 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,040 - before she was caught for doping in 2001. 522 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,680 Divorce, cancer and a severe depression ensued– 523 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,440 -and 20 years on the run from the Swedish public. 524 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:21,800 Today she is back in Sweden to give both life and sport a new chance. 525 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,160 Welcome, Ludmila Engquist. 526 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:26,920 Thanks! 527 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:33,640 I was thinking about you when we were sitting here talking. 528 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,720 - You grew up in the Soviet Union. -Yes. 529 00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:42,200 -Was there a lot of focus on well-being then? -Absolutely not. 530 00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:47,880 I had never heard the word "psychologist" or "psychotherapist". 531 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,760 One would have to bite the bullet and move on. 532 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:56,280 But one thing that was very common in the old Soviet Union– 533 00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:01,400 -was that if you felt bad, then they went to the neighbor. 534 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,920 They called, regardless of the time– 535 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:09,360 - and said that help was needed. "I need to talk." 536 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:15,560 - Did you have a neighbor like that? - Not me, but my parents. 537 00:45:15,720 --> 00:45:21,440 Then you sat, some with alcohol – vodka – or with tea... 538 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:27,040 There was no coffee then, only tea with lots of honey and jam– 539 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,520 -and then they sat and drank and drank and talked and talked. 540 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:36,400 I know that helped many. It is neighborly cooperation. 541 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,280 Wonderfully. 542 00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:47,240 You started competing very early, and by that I mean real competition. 543 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:53,560 Not like here, where you start with play. It was life and death from day one. 544 00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:56,560 In Norway they say "Olympic Games". 545 00:45:56,720 --> 00:46:00,280 Yes, exactly. That's how it is with us. 546 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:06,000 No, it's true. I remember it from kindergarten. 547 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,320 We competed in everything. 548 00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:14,680 If you jumped rope, like me did, then all the children counted. 549 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,400 They really counted, who wins. 550 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:23,160 The winner received a gift. The others didn't get it. 551 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:29,560 But no one was sad. People thought so was fair that whoever won got. 552 00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:34,560 I remember my first training camp. 553 00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:39,120 I think there were 300 kids who went to training camp. 554 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:42,640 We competed and they watched how good the kids were– 555 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,040 – on climbing, running... 556 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:51,680 And I won all the branches. The one who won a branch, got a kilo of candy. 557 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:56,920 So I sat with bags like that, and 300 children watched me. 558 00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,000 And everyone was hungry. 559 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,000 How did you solve it? 560 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:06,240 I shared the candy with those with whom I lived. 561 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:08,760 The others were hungry. 562 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:15,560 Growing up in that kind of system where you reward winners so clearly– 563 00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:18,520 -how has it shaped your personality? 564 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:24,240 I think I still am a winning skull, no matter what. 565 00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,160 That doesn't change, I think. 566 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:34,600 I ended up in Sweden and here is it the other way around, that children should play. 567 00:47:36,240 --> 00:47:41,680 Children should not be rewarded because they win. 568 00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:45,600 But I think so too that it is excessive. 569 00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:51,560 -In what way? - That you have to teach children... 570 00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:57,600 So the instinct, to make results. 571 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:00,600 To succeed, to perform. 572 00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,800 That's how it is in ordinary life, when we enter the labor market later. 573 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,520 The most important thing is not to participate, without winning? 574 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,160 For me it was like that. 575 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:16,200 In Sweden you are not allowed to tell anyone that they did not perform well– 576 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:18,360 -not even in adulthood. 577 00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,120 I spoke last week on a training... On Bosön. 578 00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,880 It's the Olympic Committee's sports center. 579 00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:31,720 One guy didn't perform, I thought. He came to me... He is 20 years old. 580 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:36,800 "How did the competition go?" - "Well, it was like that." 581 00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,400 "What results did you get?" 582 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:44,760 He told me and I said: "It was terribly bad!" 583 00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:49,920 It was a disaster. He had never heard that! 584 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:54,760 - No one had said that before? - No one had said it was a disaster. 585 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:59,800 As much time as he put in, so much money he spent– 586 00:48:59,960 --> 00:49:04,040 -as much help as he got and did not perform. 587 00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:07,600 He was completely taken aback. He looked at me. 588 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:12,720 I asked my friends if it was okay to say that? 589 00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:17,600 They said, “No, no! Nobody in Sweden says that. Nobody!” 590 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,040 But I think he thought. 591 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:25,840 He competed in the same branch this week after to improve the result. 592 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,840 Because someone had told him: "Sharpen yourself." 593 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:33,880 I think we must have Ludmila in in the men's national football team. 594 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:38,320 Here we have the trainer. Here we have the trainer. 595 00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:46,400 This is the winning skull which later becomes your biggest problem. 596 00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:51,360 Because that is the expectation that you will win– 597 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:56,560 – that makes you start to dope yourself? And then you get caught for doping. 598 00:49:56,720 --> 00:49:58,520 Yes, that's right. 599 00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:02,760 It was the fear of losing, to be punished– 600 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:08,720 – the fear of myself, not to win. Because I won all the time. 601 00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:11,280 Of course you have a point. 602 00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:17,320 We've talked about trauma. Getting caught for doping... 603 00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,000 - A huge trauma. - Was it for you? 604 00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:24,000 - It is still a trauma. – Can you try to describe it? 605 00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:29,560 It's such a big trauma that I can't think about it. 606 00:50:29,720 --> 00:50:32,320 I don't think. Never. 607 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:37,680 As soon as those thoughts come, even now after so many years– 608 00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:44,200 -then I switch off. Because I know that the experience is excruciatingly painful. 609 00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:50,160 -Is it a physical sensation you feel? - Yes, it is physical. 610 00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,560 Both physical and mental. 611 00:50:52,720 --> 00:50:59,200 Physical because I have lived with it so long that I became physically ill. 612 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:03,040 I got a lot of problems with my health– 613 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:07,840 -because I felt, and still feel, so bad 614 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:09,960 - Out of shame? -Yes. 615 00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:14,640 We talked a lot about therapy before you came. 616 00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:19,800 There are people who are involved terrible things that leave deep marks– 617 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:24,520 -but who can find reconciliation with themselves and the world in treatment. 618 00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,000 The world can be made whole again. 619 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:32,480 - I have tried in different phases. -What have you tried? 620 00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:38,600 I have been with psychotherapists, psychologists– 621 00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:42,600 -at different stages and different ages. 622 00:51:45,240 --> 00:51:49,080 But I think that it is due to my upbringing. 623 00:51:49,240 --> 00:51:53,680 It was not practiced in Russia, that type of treatment. 624 00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,120 So I came there with a negative attitude. 625 00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:02,560 -I sat there and thought: "Okay..." – Like a shield, sort of. 626 00:52:02,720 --> 00:52:07,520 Don't you think it's hard? to sit here and talk about it again? 627 00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:11,040 If I appear in the program, so I have to. 628 00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:16,440 It feels like the problem the whole time has been... 629 00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:21,840 Correct me if I'm wrong, though that you have had a hard time forgiving yourself– 630 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,160 -even though many others have forgiven you. 631 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:31,360 -And I don't think I'll ever forgive myself. -How dark has it gotten? 632 00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,440 So dark– 633 00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:40,000 - that it didn't exist some joy in life. 634 00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:42,720 To be in life. 635 00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:51,240 It's a shame too, that just… And selfish. 636 00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:56,280 It's very selfish towards family and friends. 637 00:52:56,440 --> 00:53:03,040 I know lots of people want to that I should live and be happy. 638 00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,560 Then it's selfish to just disappear. 639 00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:10,080 But there was for a long time... It didn't work. 640 00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:16,560 I can't wake up every day and just go and get on with the day. 641 00:53:16,720 --> 00:53:19,360 It just doesn't work. 642 00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:23,240 I was that low several times. 643 00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:29,680 But Ludmila, if therapy has not worked– 644 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,320 – you have gone with these feelings… 645 00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:39,040 But you still decide to move back to Sweden from Spain. 646 00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:44,920 I have to make a drastic decision to remove all thoughts. 647 00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:51,200 I went to therapy there and it was the best a therapist told me where… 648 00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:54,720 He asked me to tell him what happened. 649 00:53:54,880 --> 00:54:00,360 "My husband has left me for another, we lived together for 35 years." 650 00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:06,120 “He was my coach, everything. Now I don't know how to live." 651 00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:10,960 He just... He was a very short man. 652 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:16,200 He stood like this: “Do you want a man who has another?" - "No." 653 00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:20,600 "What's wrong with Tinder?" 654 00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:23,440 "What's wrong with Tinder?" 655 00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:29,320 - It was just completely different. - It was a different therapist. 656 00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:34,840 - Then you got help from a therapist. - I laughed a lot. 657 00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:39,360 With other therapists I cried the whole time. 658 00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,360 But with him I laughed until I got home. 659 00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:47,200 - It was good. - He helped me in that way. 660 00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:52,560 And then I help a girl – an amazing girl, Matilda. 661 00:54:52,720 --> 00:54:58,440 - You came to Sweden and became a coach. - I started in Spain already. 662 00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:04,360 She first came down to Spain and you trained her, Matilda Halfwordson. 663 00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:09,840 I asked Matilda if she could open a Tinder account for me. 664 00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:15,720 So you train her against her fixing the dating app for you? 665 00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:21,720 There are other dating apps too. 666 00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:26,760 Matilda is still in your life. You train Matilda. 667 00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:30,680 She is terribly important in my life. 668 00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:35,840 – You help Matilda, but somehow... - No, Matilda helps me. 669 00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,920 -In what way? - I feel fine. 670 00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:42,560 I feel good when I help her. 671 00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:49,840 Like I said, the whole family helps me. Everyone is involved in my well-being. 672 00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:53,800 –Matilda's family? -Yes. 673 00:55:53,960 --> 00:56:00,240 Many say that Ludmila helps her with training and getting better. 674 00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:04,360 But the truth is that they are the ones who help me. 675 00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:09,080 The moments when I'm with Matilda and her family, I'm happy. 676 00:56:09,240 --> 00:56:11,960 So... Yes. 677 00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:20,200 They don't call you the coach, they call you grandma. 678 00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:25,440 -Extra grandmother. -Ludmila, you are then back in sports. 679 00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:29,640 - Now as a coach. - Only for her. 680 00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:33,880 How is it after 20 years? 681 00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:37,520 Swedish sports have changed in 20 years. 682 00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:42,160 No, I don't think so much has changed. 683 00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,680 I think it hits the same spot. 684 00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,040 - Is it too soft? -Yes. 685 00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,560 - Is there too much petting? -Yes. 686 00:56:51,720 --> 00:56:57,160 And far too little support. And for little money. 687 00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,360 It may have gotten worse. 688 00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:08,600 When I was active there was more help for sports. 689 00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:12,840 Sports are so terribly important in society. 690 00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:17,120 For discipline. Discipline, training, health. All. 691 00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:21,680 But it has become a rich man's sport. 692 00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:27,720 Finding a new sporting talent that you can focus on… 693 00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:33,480 - That's why I sit and laugh. -Wonderfully. Thank you, Ludmila. 694 00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:39,800 Thanks to Pernilla, Christian, Nisse and Ebba. We'll be back in a week. 695 00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:51,520 Translation: M. Bach, E. Larsen, E. Enström Swedish media text for SVT